tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post8264894229236392300..comments2023-10-12T02:21:40.102-07:00Comments on English Historical Fiction Authors: Waltzing during the English Regency? Preposterous!Debra Brownhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03256313302199653185noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post-63055418048074100012016-11-26T08:30:20.558-08:002016-11-26T08:30:20.558-08:00Agree with Anonymous. Many references to waltzing ...Agree with Anonymous. Many references to waltzing much earlier and as commonplace by 1813. There were waltzing parties, like Lady Heathcote's on 5 July 1814, where Caro Lamb (who had been bid by Byron during the height of their affair in Spring 1812 not to waltz as his club-foot prevented him from doing so) said ‘I conclude I may waltz now.’ Byron replied: ‘With every body in turn – you always did it better than anyone. <br />The moves of the French and German waltzes brought bodies closer together than the modern waltz, including holding the lady's hands behind her back within the circle of your arms - certainly likely to bring bodies in contact. The most shocking aspect was the rule of sustained eye contact that was not meant to be broken during the andante first movement (after the promenade). This was disconcerting in comparison to the fleeting eye (and hand) contact of the country dances or quadrilles. The move from the seductive andante phase into the (allegretto) sauteuse rather breaks the spell, and then minding the complex steps as the pace quickens to allegro in the final phase must have bordered on pixie-dancing. <br />The steps to the waltz can be found printed on fans of the time,too.<br />Though there was a war on, there was still a flow of ideas and information in fashions, philosophy, science and other areas. It was not a vacuum. Men returning from action against Buonaparte on the continent would bring back songs, dances and fashions they had witnessed, as evidenced in private letters and diaries of the time. <br />Very useful discussion! Thank you.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13507917682033790263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post-11464158279239260412012-03-22T05:09:45.746-07:002012-03-22T05:09:45.746-07:00I have a copy of one of Thomas Wilson's Dance ...I have a copy of one of Thomas Wilson's Dance books for 1816 in which he advertises his volume on the waltz. He gives several waltzes in this book -- directions as well as music-- he also has etiquette of the ballroom and a description of the Cushion dance. Alas, the pages are in good shape but the stitches have rotted away. <br />NancyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post-27118606526472253052012-03-22T05:04:35.705-07:002012-03-22T05:04:35.705-07:00Lady Sarah Spencer wrote of seeing some royal duke...Lady Sarah Spencer wrote of seeing some royal dukes and others dancing a waltz in 1806 at a gathering at Althorpe. <br />The Duke of Devonshore held waltzing parties in 1811 and 1812. lady Caroline Lamb invited Byron to a waltzing party ( to which he went) in 1812. Byron wrote a poem "The Waltz" suggesting that the waltz came with the great comet of 1811.<br />In Emma, Mrs. Weston played a waltz for the company when they held a ball. It has been suggested that there was a country dance in squares called the waltz before the couples's dance with the man's hands in scandalous places.<br />After the waltz was introduced to Almack's, only the unfledged debs ( as we would call them) were restricted from participating. The married women -- patronesses as well-- danced the waltz . The waltz was the beginning of the end of the English country dancing as it had been.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post-49191478826226102152011-12-10T03:16:38.715-08:002011-12-10T03:16:38.715-08:00Fascinating. Detailed and serious research.Fascinating. Detailed and serious research.beryl kingstonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post-51392203327328189762011-12-06T21:29:42.045-08:002011-12-06T21:29:42.045-08:00Which Continent? The minuet remained popular for a...Which Continent? The minuet remained popular for a long time during the 1700s.<br /><br />The Waltz you describe in Monte Cristo (And if I recall this would be 1840s France perhaps) could indeed be done that way. I have done it and you must dance slower and with more control then Viennese, or Victorian waltzing because you lack support and guidance with only one hand.<br /><br />The hand in the small of the woman's back must paddle guide her to forward, and you let up to remind her to dance backward. It is not something a novice dancer can do, and not something those who do not trust each other on the dance floor can do.<br /><br />I hope I have explained it well enough.David W. Wilkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171335840275083654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post-70832116769190876872011-12-06T19:40:08.208-08:002011-12-06T19:40:08.208-08:00I've always wondered about this. It's good...I've always wondered about this. It's good to know! Of course, now I have a scene in my head from the movie "Count of Monte Cristo" (the most recent one) where the hero who is playing the count, is dancing with Mercedes at their son's birthday party. It's the waltz, but they only hold one hand. She clutches her dress, and he had his arm folded behind him. Is this the correct pose?<br /><br />Also...I have a question about dances that I hope you know What kind of dance was done in the late 1700's here on the continent? Does anyone know? I have an idea for a story, but there has to be some kind of scandalous dance included in the story. I'd hoped it could be the waltz, but now I see that isn't possible.<br /><br />~Marie~Marie Higginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06798408733684974308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post-48191352719119975812011-12-06T16:59:56.803-08:002011-12-06T16:59:56.803-08:00Thank you so much for the history! I too teach ba...Thank you so much for the history! I too teach ballroom dance having competed here in the US for a few years. It is funny to ask students which dance is the most scandalous, because they all say tango until we talk about dancing with the same partner for an entire dance! And you're right, it couldn't have been today's "Viennese Waltz" because you'd have had to be too close to accomplish those turns.Kathy Carrollnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post-53310233693114145562011-12-06T12:25:49.883-08:002011-12-06T12:25:49.883-08:00Ah to be an ape leader dressed in the first stare....Ah to be an ape leader dressed in the first stare. But dancing close to your partner face to face, mimicking what is done in the bedchamber, scandalous! Great post!Maggi Andersenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15430261880092452319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post-12904816942290830092011-12-06T11:09:41.526-08:002011-12-06T11:09:41.526-08:00This was very timely to read and remind me about a...This was very timely to read and remind me about accuracy. I am one of the culprits. I do believe I have a college Literacy Club story with a waltz in it during the early Regency period.<br />It's unpublished so it doesn't count, right? <br /><br />However, not all hope is lost if you need a dance to suit a conversation or for the couple to privately dance together. <br />I did discover while writing last year that there was an older dance that was transformed to new meter and grew popular in the Georgian period called the Allemande. It was still occasionally danced in the early Regency period though would have faded into history by the time period discussed above.<br /><br />Interesting post! Thanks for sharing your knowledge and research.Sophia Rosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07909417504496472472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post-68854393279696778032011-12-06T08:39:12.487-08:002011-12-06T08:39:12.487-08:00Thank you for this post! It is most helpful, and ...Thank you for this post! It is most helpful, and an excellent resource.Lauren Gilberthttp://www.heyerwood.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post-16277562788918840682011-12-06T07:01:59.342-08:002011-12-06T07:01:59.342-08:00Absolutely fascinating! One of the biggest challen...Absolutely fascinating! One of the biggest challenges for me in trying to write historical fiction is finding references like this to help me sort out this kind of detail. Thanks so much for providing such a great reference.<br /><br />Maria GraceMaria Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06240186239574188022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post-17945494850694994572011-12-06T04:09:18.701-08:002011-12-06T04:09:18.701-08:00That should have read "lounging" in the ...That should have read "lounging" in the quotation from Raikes, not lounching. Apologies.M.M. Bennettshttp://www.mmbennetts.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post-12771605194106901032011-12-06T04:07:09.651-08:002011-12-06T04:07:09.651-08:00This is a wonderful post. Thank you so much. And ...This is a wonderful post. Thank you so much. And I must say I'm so chuffed to see someone besides myself take up the issue of the inaccuracy of the waltz (and other things) that are staples of Regency novels. <br /><br />The Lievens arrived in London in the autumn of 1812, so I suppose anything is possible from there on out. However, Dorothea did not make a splash at the first, though as her husband was Russia's ambassador, she would have been in company with the Castlereaghs, as Viscount Castlereagh was the Foreign Secretary--and Lady Castlereagh was a patroness of Almack's--and others of governmental/society circles. <br /><br />The first reliable source I've found for the waltz being introduced to society is in late 1813, bearing in mind that waltzing (at a ball at someone's country house) is not the same thing as waltzing at Almack's. <br /><br />But apparently, Dorothea Lieven had introduced it by then, but it wasn't being performed at Almack's chiefly because the patronesses themselves hadn't mastered the steps. Hence the Duke of Devonshire allowed classes at Devonshire House so that society ladies and gentlemen had a chance to master it and not embarrass themselves in public.<br /><br />(I've even read that the Prince Regent turned up there to learn the steps, but since his waistline was about 50" at this time, this is an image I prefer not to contemplate.)<br /><br />About the same time, Thomas Raikes writes of that both young and old "returned to school, and the mornings which had been dedicated to lounching in the Parks, were now absorbed at home...whirling a chair around a room to learn the step and measure of the German waltz." <br /><br />But one other influence is probable and that is the opening up of the Continent to British travellers by the fall of Napoleon in April 1814. The British, who had been, as you point out, excluded from Europe for decades, flocked across the Channel. Wellington's troops were by summer in Paris--which also had a full complement of Prussians and Russians. The Tsar and his sister visited London in the summer of 1814. <br /><br />And autumn brought the Congress of Vienna, with a full bevy of British diplomats and visitors. Though in accounts of the balls there, the waltz is not mentioned much, though the Polonaise, particularly as danced by Tsar Alexander at the opening of evening ball he attended, is. Ad nauseum.<br /><br />Thanks again.M.M. Bennettshttp://www.mmbennetts.comnoreply@blogger.com