tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post7942618748346294856..comments2023-10-12T02:21:40.102-07:00Comments on English Historical Fiction Authors: Elizabeth Barton, Holy Maid of Kent -- Blessed, Mad or Cursed?Debra Brownhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03256313302199653185noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post-90958531564773975862016-10-15T13:53:28.858-07:002016-10-15T13:53:28.858-07:00Thank you for your commentary Maclin. I received a...Thank you for your commentary Maclin. I received a polite response. Elizabeth Barton was never beautified, but there is differing opinions as to why that would be. Many Roman Catholics were persecuted during the reigns of Henry and Elizabeth, not all beautified and even fewer ultimately canonized. Keep in mind "miracles after death" are needed to qualify for such distinction, not just martyrdom or a saintly life while alive. Beth von Staatshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792344700035752636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post-5665616540878735192016-10-15T11:04:01.609-07:002016-10-15T11:04:01.609-07:00Hi. I found this post while looking for info about...Hi. I found this post while looking for info about Elizabeth Barton. I was about to write a blog post about her under the assumption that she had been beatified by the Catholic Church. But it seems I may be mistaken about that. Even some Catholic sources seem to think she may have been a fraud. I've read the comment thread here and am wondering whether you ever heard back from the Tyburn sisters. Thanks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post-77262225018727054812014-01-12T17:59:57.165-08:002014-01-12T17:59:57.165-08:00I believe she certainly was, at least for Thomas C...I believe she certainly was, at least for Thomas Cranmer and Thomas Cromwell. In orchestrating her fall, they were able to entrap several Roman Catholic Bishops and clergy along with her. By doing this, Cranmer was able to appoint new Bishops with Reformist leanings. On the Roman Catholic side of things, her prophecies called into question the relationship between the King and Anne Boleyn. She met with courtiers close to Queen Catalina de Aragon, but little is known of what exactly was discussed. My sense there is a genuine belief by Roman Catholic leadership that she was the "real deal", rather than any political undertones. Beth von Staatshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792344700035752636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post-49866191220111846572014-01-04T16:05:43.625-08:002014-01-04T16:05:43.625-08:00Could she have possibly been a political tool for ...Could she have possibly been a political tool for both sides? I'm really intrigued about the scant information of someone so popular and can only wonder if it was all swept away with the church holdings and position. I'm off to check the link to the convent. She would be fascinating to write about.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post-64275358310300879902014-01-03T04:52:07.584-08:002014-01-03T04:52:07.584-08:00You're welcome--thank you for the interesting ...You're welcome--thank you for the interesting conversation!Stephanie A. Mannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14796489639420491857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post-71477993553274315702014-01-02T17:12:58.881-08:002014-01-02T17:12:58.881-08:00Oh that is very interesting Stephanie. I would hav...Oh that is very interesting Stephanie. I would have never thought of that. My only thought was perhaps they were not considered because of the likely forced confessions, but in my heart I believe it must be more than just that. Thank you for your thoughts.Beth von Staatshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792344700035752636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post-5671409110450868552014-01-02T12:28:40.080-08:002014-01-02T12:28:40.080-08:00I know that the process of declaring a person a ma...I know that the process of declaring a person a martyr saint (instead of a confessor saint) is complex. The Church is very careful when reviewing the lives and deaths involved in these causes: one crucial element or factor is demonstrating devotion to the person (the technical term is "cult" but that doesn't mean cult in the vernacular sense, of course). As I have studied the causes of the English and Welsh martyrs, I noted that when the "martyr" was involved in some military campaign against the Tudor or Stuart regime or any conspiracy, the Church has been reluctant to beatify or canonize him or her. Perhaps that applies to Elizabeth Barton and her companions.Stephanie A. Mannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14796489639420491857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post-43110407710540936832014-01-01T16:04:16.116-08:002014-01-01T16:04:16.116-08:00Here is their website. It is VERY interesting. htt...Here is their website. It is VERY interesting. http://www.tyburnconvent.org.uk/Beth von Staatshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792344700035752636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post-69125951128090401432014-01-01T16:02:04.710-08:002014-01-01T16:02:04.710-08:00Happy New Year to you, as well! Yes, I am so hopin...Happy New Year to you, as well! Yes, I am so hoping to hear back for the Sisters at Tyburn Convent. I am 100% certain that they can be of help to me in learning of the Roman Catholic view of England in the 16th century. The Roman Catholic Martyrs do not begin to be tracked and many beautified until 1535, starting with the Carthusian monks who refuse to take the oath of supremacy. I do not know why Elizabeth Barton, and at the very least those poor 5 priests, as there is no question of religious persecution. I am hoping the Sisters can help me with this. Beth von Staatshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792344700035752636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post-2806146156872525762014-01-01T10:39:57.077-08:002014-01-01T10:39:57.077-08:00Thank you for clarifying! I hope you receive a rep...Thank you for clarifying! I hope you receive a reply from the Tyburn Convent. Happy New Year!Stephanie A. Mannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14796489639420491857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post-10502484148906437822014-01-01T10:33:40.505-08:002014-01-01T10:33:40.505-08:00Stephanie, my apologies. I deleted my comment to c...Stephanie, my apologies. I deleted my comment to correct it. I have seen her referred to beautified, but I find no Roman Catholic sources that she was in fact beautified. Although she was executed at Tyburn for treason, she is NOT listed as one of the Roman Catholic Martyrs. I emailed the Prioress of the Roman Catholic Convent at Tyburn to find out why that is. Roman Catholic sources I have read are very careful with her, relating that her confessions were forced but stopping short of saying she was filled with the Holy Spirit. Thank you for raising this point.Beth von Staatshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792344700035752636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post-18291513353341494212014-01-01T09:26:16.786-08:002014-01-01T09:26:16.786-08:00Beth von Staats, has Elizabeth Barton been Beatifi...Beth von Staats, has Elizabeth Barton been Beatified (declared Blessed) by the Catholic Church? I don't think she is included among the lists of Martyrs of England and Wales. The Catholic Encyclopedia entry is ambivalent about her claims. Please clarify, because the lettering on the icon could lead one to conclude the Church has declared her a saint worthy of devotion and intercession. Thank you.Stephanie A. Mannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14796489639420491857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post-34274068398555273532014-01-01T06:00:27.095-08:002014-01-01T06:00:27.095-08:00It is very difficult to know what is exactly true ...It is very difficult to know what is exactly true of the Holy Maid, because the contemporary sources that remain of her are highly hostile. One would have to assume, however, that she believed her prophecies to be real to speak them directly to the King and religious leaders. Beth von Staatshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11792344700035752636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2456802468539868519.post-901021049502964692013-12-31T22:20:45.833-08:002013-12-31T22:20:45.833-08:00A mental illness, perhaps? Personally, I have long...A mental illness, perhaps? Personally, I have long thought that Joan of Arc had one; I've had a student who heard voices telling her she was the chosen one; fortunately, she got a stint in hospital rather than the ear of the local Archbishop! I can't believe that someone deliberately trying to stir up trouble would make the kind of prophecies that could be disproved so easily.Sue Bursztynskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09362273418897882971noreply@blogger.com